Kevon Cheung - Leaving a $100k brand behind & expanding beyond your current niche

Alex Llull 0:01 Well, first of all, welcome. Come on to an episode of greater highs. Thanks so much for for being here and for taking the time to do this. Kevon Cheung 0:18 Thank you, Alex. I mean, you're an amazing human being. So we keep in touch all the time. So thank you for having me here again. Of course. Alex Llull 0:25 I mean, I want to get straight to the point because the first thing that I want to cover and the main reason that I wanted you to be in this podcast is because you are aware of the building public guy or one of the building bugging you guys, I will say one of the main ones, you made over $100,000 Thanks to that umbrella of the building in public and all that. But now you're quitting building public? Kevon Cheung 0:50 Why? I wouldn't use the word quitting. Okay. Honestly, I, that YouTube video is titled I'm leaving building in public? Well, that's a clickbait T kind of title. In a video, I explained that the way I think about it is, well, I personally find limitation in in a work building in public. So let me explain why I'm making that decision. It is because, you know, building in public was really popular at the end of 2020, when I first showed up, and I was very lucky to be able to arrive the wave and just be the person to help other do that. But then my biggest realization is that it's actually just a term, like digital marketing, like content marketing. So I've been doing so much hot work, trying to make this generic term popular. And, yeah, and overtime, I don't think I get the credits. Because all my teaching, no matter how people learn it, under Cavani teaching, they would still just see it as building in public. So I guess what I'm struggling with is like, I'm not building up my own framework. So and then building public is kind of going on a downtrend. There's a lot of debate about whether it's a good strategy, so I decided not to quit, but to expand beyond building in public. And I think it's the right time, because pretty much I to look at what I'm doing. And my philosophy is actually much more than what people see as building in public. So then, yeah, that's why I made that decision. Yeah, to expand. Alex Llull 2:43 Yeah, no, I think that's pretty smart from you. Because as you as you see, have you said, I also seen, like, some signs of that the building public trend, people are starting to be like a bit, fed up with it, at the end of the day is just a trend, right? It's like one more trend, but it it gets so it's there is so many things on the rate that you have been teaching people to, you know, like, you know, how call to market themselves, how to build buzz around the product launch, all that kinds of stuff that fit on their building and body. But you know, there's like way, so many more ways that you can look at it. So I think it's a pretty isn't super smart decision, but at the same time is brave. Because as creators, we are like, Okay, this has been my thing for the last three years. And now, you know, I'm scared of like, what's next? You know, because obviously, that was going to be my next question. Okay. You decide, okay, I'm going to ditch building public. But where does one go? From here? You know, what's the thinking of like, okay, how do I figure out my next thing? You know, what's my next thing going to be? What has been that process for you? Kevon Cheung 3:49 Yeah, I guess it goes back to a lot of internal discovery. Like, what do I actually enjoy in this process of teaching building in public. And I realize, you know, I've been in this education field for a long time, I really like teaching, I like sharing, I like guiding people to move forward, you know, no matter where they are. So I really don't want to leave this field. I want to continue and I want to help more people, you know, I help them build in public as in, I help them show up. I help them tell their stories. But now I'm thinking I can help people also start becoming a bit more strict strategic in building their knowledge business, their education business, because I'm doing this and I'm very good at like, just showing what I do and then help people a few steps behind me. So it's, it's very natural. But the other thing is, I also look at my existing audience, like would it be a very smooth transition? If I start selling things related to building an edge Asian business? Would they take it? And the answer is yes, because I serve a lot of info products creator, aspiring creators. And that is very important because I definitely don't want to get rid of what I'm doing right now and then set up something new. That's not my intention. I want to keep doing what I do right now, because it's my main program doing in public mastery. And I think it's actually solving a very key problem, a lot of people really have a hard time talking about what they're working on. So I'm going to continue to teach that. But now I have something new, that is about helping people build their education business. So I think it can it can go hand in hand, that would be my thought process. Yeah, Alex Llull 5:46 I think, again, it's pretty cool. Because building public at the same time, early only helps you like, write that trend me like the guy, you know, and get some traction, but longer term, and this is what was happening to you, I think it becomes like sort of a handcuffs for you, you know, like, you can not go out because you are the building public right now, you have like a bigger umbrella, let's say like building a crater, like an education business where he's like, you know, that's a bit more big. So you can fit more topics under it, you can talk about more things. But so I really like the direction. But the key is the question that I have, like, for anyone that's listening to us, you know, and it's like, Man, I have this thing that I want to be known for, should they already start with? You know, like, here's the question of like, should should you be like a niche first and then expand? Or should you start with the spending first? And then is, you know, like, according to you, like, what's the best way to go about it? Because you obviously follow the one thing, but would you have done it differently? Knowing what you know, now? Kevon Cheung 6:46 No, I would still do it the same way. Definitely niche first, because I think a lot of people might not understand that. By niching. Down. It's actually a lot easier. So let me explain that. At the end of 2020, I created a building public guy, nine chapters all for free, you don't even need to put in your email. So I became building public guy. And, you know, because I'm the building public guy. So it's so easy for people to say, hey, you should check out Kavon. He's the building public guy says, count how many words people need to say, to just refer people to me? Check out ca Vaughn. He is the building public guy that's like around 1011 words. That's how easy it is. But if you are, you know, being broad, you try to cover a lot of things. It'll be very difficult for people to even recommend you. So that's not good. So that's number one. And I think number two is we can be idealistic about, oh, I want to build a school, I want to build a brand that can cover everything about online business. That's very idealistic. In reality, I think we just need to capture opportunity. So three years ago, the opportunity was in building in public, I captured it very lucky. And now the opportunity is not there. So I need to go capture something new. I think that should be, you know, the top party. Because in our head, we can do a lot of things. But is there is there enough demand to build a business around it? That's something we should consider first. Yeah, Alex Llull 8:41 yeah, I think that's a really good advice. Speaking more of like, the how you see now the business, you have your core offer, you have like the building value mastery that just started right now, as you mentioned, you have a few info products and all of that. How do you see those fitting your new umbrella? Are you going to rebrand them a little bit like the names? Do those change not? Or are you just going to keep everything the same? And just keep adding more things on top of that is I'm just curious to see like, what you're thinking there? Kevon Cheung 9:10 Yeah, so I thought about this really hard. It is very easy to say, public lab, my main brand, and building public mastery my main program, maybe I should change the name and then call it whatever that is. So then now I only have one brand is easier to market that way. But I think that sudden change is too too extreme, like the people who are following me they would have a hard time digesting that. So plus, the biggest consideration is that I don't even know if my new direction would work or not. So if I do all the changes and remove the old stuff, it is very risky. So Oh, I'm a very slow, and how do you say, I guess organize maybe a planner. So in my mind, I want to do a slow transition, I want to build a new brand for this new value proposition. And for a while, maybe I'll have to brand name under coupon. But I think that's okay. Because I auto also start to understand that it's okay, if you have to brand like people run different businesses, right. And my two businesses are, I mean, they're actually both education. So it's not that so different. So people come in, and they will go through my journey, for example, landing page emails. So if people come in through my new school, they won't be seeing what I want them to see. But if people come in through my public lab, they will eventually get to my viewing public course. So it's totally okay. I think, sometimes we think too much like, oh, this new person come in, they will check out everything and get confused. People rarely do that people. Yeah, and enter from one point, and then just keep looking at what you show them. So I'm just gonna try that for a few months and then see, if I really want to just focus on that new brand completely. Yeah, Alex Llull 11:28 no, I think that makes no sense. And, as you said, like you are, you are still building about, you're still sharing all of this process in public. So people are actually seeing it with you, they are with you on a they are like, you know, following it, and everything. So it's part of your brand, like, it's super cool, because it's meta, and everything kind of ties together really realize the you know, so I think you don't have any problems. And as you said, people pay way less attention that we think they pay, you know, to these kinds of things, we are the only ones that pay so much attention to our projects, you know, this link needs to be perfect. This color here needs to be like people that really don't care much about that kind of stuff, as long as what you give them is is good. Right? So I think, I think on that way, you are going to be perfect. You know, I don't think you will have any issues. Kevon Cheung 12:18 Yeah, yeah. And I do have a plan to bring this new brand out, which is through a product. So I feel pretty awkward just announcing, Hey, guys, I'm building a new school to show you how to build your education business. That's, that's a bit mad, because like, what can people do with it? So my plan is, I'm going to create a new product. And then this product will go under this new brand name. So people can check out the product, they can even get on the waitlist, they can buy it. And then maybe some of them will be noticing, oh, what is this new brand? Then they will check it out? I think that's a much natural way to discover the new brand. And I don't need to be so loud about it. I can be really subtle. Yeah, Alex Llull 13:08 yeah, I got it. Yeah, super cool. So let me ask, is the broccoli going away? Or is obviously staying because I love it? You know, your broccoli branding? Kevon Cheung 13:19 Yeah, I don't think it's going away. I mean, is this on my wall right now. But I do think about where should it be in a new brand? And the answer is definitely no. Because I want to be able to school. It doesn't mean I don't want to be a bit. You know, my style. I'm a bit casual, a bit fun. On top of being professional, but probably for the school brand. I don't want to go that far to have a broccoli. But I'm thinking that broccoli can stay with my personal brand, though broccoli can stay with public Lab, which is already the logo. And I'm gonna actually start to picture like my business structure, right? Of course, I'm going to focus on the school going forward, but public lab can be remodeled into the into a place where I keep sharing how I build this business, because public lab, the name already implies that it's a place for transparency, it's a place to share. So maybe that would be my newsletter, only my newsletter, but then all my new products, the courses, the info products would go under the school brand. So I'm just That's my current plan. So things don't go to waste. Alex Llull 14:45 No, yeah. 100% is not like scraping everything and starting over, as you said is more like two things that can coexist at the same time and maybe you know, the future will tell you what, to what to leave behind and what to keep going more exact Once Kevon Cheung 15:00 though, yeah, seeing people's reaction. Exactly, Alex Llull 15:03 exactly. Because your whole thing is building with people, right? So that's the good thing that you get that super cool, quick feedback from them and direct to. Which is actually another thing that I wanted to talk about, like, Well, I always do like a bit of research before, before the call, I was looking at some, like, you know, one liners that you are posted somewhere, or that I read, like in some of your stuff, and there was one that really stuck with me. And it was you mentioned, like, you should be involving your audience as they are your co founders, you know, and ally, was like, Okay, that's a pretty cool thing. So can you talk more about that, like how you see building with your audience, which is super interesting approach, and I think it's the right approach. But I want to hear from you. Kevon Cheung 15:51 Yeah, thanks for sharing that line is resonating with you is sticky, because people say that to me. So now I need to like find a way to use that more. But basically, I think, because the people that I am helping are usually solo entrepreneurs. So we're building businesses online, mostly. And that can be not just a lonely journey, but you really need to get good at getting feedback and talking to users, right. So my philosophy has always been involving whoever is around you, not not whoever, but actually people who might eventually become your customer, you should involve them, you know, give them early access, if you're writing a book or building a course, some people should see it way before you launch it. So then you can get some early reviews. So then you can reshape the product to be better. So then you can, you know, make sure you have enough testimonial for the launch. So, and I've done that so many times, that I found that I actually don't need co founders in this business, because actually, these people are my co founders. And they're very good at it, because they need what I'm building. So I still remember I was writing the book, find joy and chaos is a book about building your Twitter slash x presence. And I Writing a book is hard in a way that the hardest part is structuring the information. So I have some readers who would write me like three pages of feedback. So that's kind of like having a co founder, who was like, sharing, sharing feedback with me. And I liked that. And I liked that for different products, like different co founders. So I guess that's the philosophy, and it takes away that loneliness of building, it gives you accurate feedback, if you know how to use it. So yeah, yeah, Alex Llull 18:05 that was going to be like, because when I think about it, I'm like, okay, listening to feedback is obviously good. But what happens when that feedback is like, like, so against, like, your initial vision, for example, you know, and maybe it's like, 18, but you know, but I had this idea, this person said, I say, I, this patient says B, and is there is no way to, like, match those, like, Should you still like trust your gut or listen to that person? Or maybe not that person? Maybe it's like a few person but like, how do you think about like that clash of ways of thinking? Kevon Cheung 18:39 Yeah, I mean, any feedback is better than no feedback. That's, that's for sure. And a lot of people would be scared of building with their audience because they, they're afraid of getting confused, getting mixed feelings. But I think if you want to be a good or great entrepreneur, you eventually you have to develop a system to filter feedback. And if you're someone who just listened to someone and be like, Oh, that makes sense. Let me do it. You will not be a great entrepreneur, because you just listening to people and people don't understand what you're trying to do. So my My way is always, for example, I asked you yesterday about a brand name that I'm thinking about. So a lot of the feedback I get back is like I don't know, this is not clear. I don't know what this is for. I would think that if you don't have a position in why you're asking people for feedback, then you would go oh, this is not a good name. I should create something, maybe call create a school. You know, that's so clear, everyone understand. But I know why I'm asking people like I'm not. I know that I don't need to be clear. The year with a brand name create a school sounds great clear. But it sounds boring. Create a school. It doesn't create that like, Oh, this is this is weird. This is quirky. Yeah, yeah, I want that feeling. So when people reply me like this is not clear. I, I liked that. I liked that it's not clear because it's aligned with what I'm trying to find out. So I wouldn't just listen to that feedback and be like, oh, I need to make it clear. So ultimately, it's about knowing your stand knowing what exactly feedback you want. I can tell you so many times that I reject feedback. But of course, I wouldn't tell the person like, I don't like your feedback, like, this is not useful, I wouldn't do that. I will be very thankful for all feedback. But just internally, I would be selective in what I use. Yeah, Alex Llull 21:00 I think you said it when you just said it. Like, you need to know why you're asking for that feedback. You know, just not asking feedback, for the sake of asking is like, Okay, I have this brand name. I want it. I just want to know people's reaction to it. And as you said, like it, which is your case, right, right now? And maybe a lot of people say, I don't know, I don't know. But maybe that's what you are asking for. Maybe that's, you know, as you said, it's not I know, at least it's not a generic thing. It's something that gets like an emotional response for people, which is maybe what I'm looking for. So exactly. Yeah, that's pretty cool. I wanted to touch a bit too, on, on on a few things, because I read your 100k case study. And for anyone that's listening to this and don't know what that is, come on board out. Case study, like, I think it's like 40 something pages of how he grew his creative, negotiate business, and all of that, and the revenue and everything like everything is there is like super actually transparent, which is super cool. And in there, you you mentioned that 82% of your income of the last three years, which is the time that your business has been a live game from digital products, while the rest I think it's a coaching a live one on one things and be more like, like that. So which is super interesting, because one of the easier ways to monetize for creators usually early is the other way around is to start with services, maybe one on one coaching or like done for us type of stuff, and then transition to digital products. So why did you choose that route? First? Why did you say because I'm understanding that you could you could have peripherally gone like, Okay, I'm building services first, maybe I do some ghost writing for, you know, building public founders or whatever, you know, and it will be would have been easier for you to transition. But so why did you choose digital product first? For your you know, for your business? Studies? Yeah. Kevon Cheung 22:52 To be honest, I still remember at that point, which is May 2021, six months after I first writing sharing online, I didn't know anything about digital product revenue versus service revenue. I wasn't looking at it that way. I didn't even know that service is easier than product revenue. I haven't read Nathan's Berry's letter of wealth article at that point. Yeah. I guess I was just following what was happening around me. I remember my first paid product is a paid community. So it's not expensive, because my first product, I'm not confident. So it was just five US dollar per month for a paid community. So it, that idea came because a lot of people read my building public guide, and they are interested to, you know, practice it or bounce ideas with others. So it's easy to just like, Oh, here's a community join us today. So I guess you can consider that digital product. I don't know, it's still quite heavy in terms of that using your hours to serve the community, but, but it's scalable, I guess. That's why it's so gray. But the reason why I hopped to doing courses is because from the community experience, I learned that I don't just want to run a community where I need to focus on connecting members and facilitating connections. I actually enjoy much more that I'm creating materials and then sharing with people and then I'm guiding them to make some changes in their lives. And I learned that I love that. So for me, I'm following my interests to trump the community. I shut it down after four months and start to run a course. And when I run a course, I think I didn't go directly to building a video course. To make money because I didn't know what people want to learn from me, I had zero idea. So my first reaction is, hey, let's put them in a cohort. Let's do some live workshops. I'll try to create materials, but I will be able to get feedback right away, so I can keep improving. And then suddenly, I got into running a cohort based course because of that. So yeah, I didn't really think about, you know, revenue types or anything. It was just following my, my learning and my interests. But But the other thing is, I hate doing services. I just don't get the same satisfaction. Maybe, because, yeah, you're building your own thing under your own name that is like so, so good. But that being said, I'm lucky to have some runway to be that spoil, to just focus on products. I, when I tell my students, I also tell them that service is a good place to start to understand the audience to understand the pain point. And then you can productize it to scale the revenue. Yeah. Yeah, Alex Llull 26:15 I think you're a good example of someone that didn't have everything figured out and just figure it out while doing it. I think this is a good example, I just had, like, you didn't know that, you know, services, or, you know, you didn't have like, a super complex business plan behind your thing. It was like, Okay, let's just do this thing, which I think is the thing that I should do, but I don't know. But until I don't do it, I will never know. And you end up finding your path now. Thanks to that, right. So I think that's another thing that is a big stopper for like a lot of new creators or stuff like that gets like, there is so many options for what to do. There is so many, you know, just pick one start. And you can always quit and move to the next one, you know, you don't just stop trying to figure it out. Kevon Cheung 26:59 I want to add something to that, which is I'm still struggling with that. Let me explain. I told you, I'm creating a new school, right, a school brand. And then of course, I did some research, I did some planning. So I have a new business structure mapped out like, oh, I want to do low ticket, middle ticket, high ticket, all that. And then I want a logo, I want podcasts, all that. And it's so easy, especially because I'm not a beginner anymore. To to want to do it all at once. Like I want to start out with a with a nice domain with a nice logo, everything with three courses ready to go when people see the website. Yeah, I have to remind myself that that's not a good approach that's going to take too long to launch. So I remind myself, who cares about the new brand, what I told you, let's just build the next product, sell the next product. And the new brand will form in the next maybe 1824 months. I will do it bits by bits. And honestly, see I'm struggling. And I have to constantly remind myself, so not just for beginners. Alex Llull 28:18 Now Yeah, that's definitely true. I suffer from the same thing. And I sometimes I think about like, the old days, I saw like an old man saying this. But like, at the beginning, it was way easier to just gonna do this thing. And I do it. And now he's like, Oh, but I need to think about the funnel. I need to think about the lead magnet and I need to write five things like overcomplicating everything. So, yeah, I totally agree that sometimes we overcomplicate things, and it's just better to just listen to this one thing. And then let's see what happens. That's Kevon Cheung 28:49 the curse of knowledge. Right? When you know, so much, and you want to cover so much. Alex Llull 28:55 Yeah, definitely. And, you know, we can start to wrap it up. But I want to talk about one more thing, because I've seen that you. Obviously your core offer is like a cohort course, which is very one, no one on one by one to a few people and so on. But lately, you have been very vocal about your courses being more about text based more than video based, which is something I don't know if he's like, 100% tax based, but at least I've seen you talk about it, which I think is a pretty interesting approach. Because right now, it seems like everyone is doing like a video course. And all courses need to be video and all of that. Why text? Why do you think that's a good format for for course. Kevon Cheung 29:39 I look at my own data, basically. And I can I don't mind sharing the data is relevant to my business. If you think it's relevant to yours, please follow that as well. So when people subscribe, I have a form to ask them. And one of the question is what's your favorite way to learn? And I forgot to look at the data for so Long, but I think six months ago as looking at the data 55% People like to read around 2020 ish percent like to do video courses around, I don't know, 10 to 12% likes to do live programs, like do it with peers, like a cohort. And then the last is others, like, people would fill in the blanks. So from that I'm like, this is interesting. My main program has always been a live program. That means I'm only targeting 12% of my entire audience, the other people they would be like, so I don't know, against cohort learning style, right. So I'm just like, really surprised by that data. And I, I look at some of the best people that I follow, and I admire. And to be honest, their text products are really good. I get to read it really fast. So the time to value is really quick. And I, it's easier to take notes as well, like, I don't need to sit here, watch a video and take my own notes. I can, yeah, highlight things, whatever you want to do. And also, it's so easy to revisit. That's crazy, like video courses you never revisit. So with all this learning, I'm just thinking, Am I missing out on the biggest crowd of the learners in on the internet by just doing video courses and live programs? So I think this is a hypothesis for me, like, we know that Tex has this advantage. But we need to fight against the notion of like text product is a book, which is 10 bucks. Yeah, a lot of people say that. But I actually agree at first. But I'm slowly being convinced that it doesn't have to be because I don't know if I'm going too deep with this. But no, no, when we talk about product types, right? We always just say tags, video courses, cohort based courses, we kind of label it with one format. But I realize almost all the good programs are hybrid. It's never just one format. It's like a mix of different formats. Like, for example, my building public Mastery Course is videos for the curriculum, people can watch it anytime. And then we have live workshops. So it's a hybrid thing. Right? Yeah. So I'm just thinking, yeah, texts can be the core learning materials. But we can still have a few videos, just to maybe do some screen sharing. And we can have some workshops to pull everyone together as well. And you can definitely price it whatever way you want with this structure. So yeah, that's why I have been kept saying, like, a couple of minutes ago, like, I'm going to focus on texts, because of all these reasons. I Alex Llull 33:14 like it. And I never thought about it. But now I was well, as you were talking, I was thinking about one of the latest courses I've done. I mean, it was a pretty good course I'm not going to name it. So people don't think I'm like bashing like the the materials were good. But some of the videos I felt were like, okay, these videos like five minutes too long, you know, it probably could have been like a two page PDF, with the same information. And I read it like in like two minutes, instead of having to sit for 10 minutes, and watching the video add two plus speed, which is what I do want to watch, of course, you know, just so I can, you know, show just so I don't fall asleep. So I like I like the hybrid method that you that you mentioned, and at the same time, as creators need to be more honest, probably about like, with ourselves about, Do I really need to make a 10 video of minutes about this? Or is enough, we like two pages of notes, you know, to share the core thing I want, you know, because that's the other thing is like how long I'm going to keep someone going through my course. More videos doesn't mean like more value, even though that's the perception. And as you said, even though text has like a lower price per perception, you know, if I say I have these, you know, for debate cases, study in your case, and you charge 100 bucks for it, people are going to be like, never going to pay 100 bucks for like a 40 page thing, you know, but if you say it's a it's a four hour video course or like how I build my 100k business and the information is the same people will be like, Oh, that's too cheap. You know, so yeah, that's a really interesting, I like your approach. Yeah, Kevon Cheung 34:51 I think we all fall into that trap. Like I don't know why. Yeah, so Want to actually reply on one of my posts? Like, why would text be just $10? Like, so that that really got into my head and start thinking, and I think, yeah, and the other thing is we somehow associate effort. With the price point, like, we feel like by adding more effort, adding more content, adding more lessons, is worth charging more. I guess we're not putting the student the customer in, in the top priority, like caring about their time to value. But the last thing I want to say is, text product has to be really good. Like, if you don't care about like, the reason why people do videos is maybe because it's easy. Oh, you just create some slideshows, and then you start talking to the camera. And then you don't do much editing. That's, that's not good enough. People don't enjoy your videos. But same to Tex. Tex is actually really hard. So I think the ability to charge higher like 100 200 for text product would be hugely dependent on how good you structure those information. Yeah, really hard. I'm going to try to do that. But let's see how it goes. It's cool. Alex Llull 36:29 And you made me think about it and made me question if your next thing I do, I will have this. I will keep this in mind. Kevon Cheung 36:37 I guess you can I maybe you can do like a survey to your audience I'm really interested to see in our Data Alliance, like 55%. Alex Llull 36:50 If I get the same number, then it's a sign. Cool. So I think with this we can we can wrap it up. I want to thank you for coming over Gabon and being like, so open with everything. Where can people find more about you? In general, new brand? I don't know. We want to say I don't think you want to say yet. In general, where can people follow if I'm all about you? Kevon Cheung 37:16 Funny, you asked me this question, because I'm thinking, is he gonna ask me? Because I told you I just got the domain, right? I think I'm gonna say it. I'm gonna say it because I like whoever watching this until the very end. Even if the website is not on, I think they deserve to know the survey first. Yeah. And yeah, I don't really care about like that launch bus. Because I told you I want to slow transition. So then then the new domain will be small dot school. Wow. Small dot school and the new brand name will be small school. So I'm, I'm teaching you how to build a small school. Teaching whatever you want to teach, you know? And, and the key here, maybe I should take this chance to explain why small is too many people's try to think too big at first. But if you stay stay small, if you care about your as we talk about as you care about your students, your learners, your customers, if you really work with them. Your small will become big one day. Hmm. So So yeah, that's a good claim. Yeah, so you can find me there. Maybe the website is not on then you can find me public laptop co social media wise. X is still the place I enjoyed the most so mica Vaughn. Yeah, that's it. Okay, Alex Llull 38:51 awesome. Thanks again, give on and thanks for everyone listening. And yeah, see you on the next one. Kevon Cheung 38:58 All right. Thanks for having me. Bye. Bye.